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I guess I will be the first to say Chris Singletary should be MAC Player of the Year.

Granted David Kool is a great player, and will probably win the award. I would not even be upset if that happened. But somewhere along the line, the POY has to lead his team to successes and victories. This is an argument that has been heard high and low through every sport in America about if the MVP or POY should be on a team that cannot consistently win. Your thoughts?

Let me be the first to agree. I also expect Chris to have another POW before the season's over.

The approach I take to voting is: If every player in the conference is thrown into a draft, who are you taking first?

Are you taking Singletary first? I'm not. It's hard for me to say the best player in the conference is the guy only playing in 65% of possible minutes. You can also make the case he's not the best player on his own team.

The argument you cite against Kool doesn't hold much water with me. You're not properly estimating how bad Kool's supporting cast is, and one man can't do it alone. Put David on Kent, and you're looking at a team threatening 30 wins and is easily in the top 40.

If Kool played for us we would be horrifying to play!

(02-22-2010 06:29 PM)OZoner Wrote:  The approach I take to voting is: If every player in the conference is thrown into a draft, who are you taking first?

Are you taking Singletary first? I'm not. It's hard for me to say the best player in the conference is the guy only playing in 65% of possible minutes. You can also make the case he's not the best player on his own team.

The argument you cite against Kool doesn't hold much water with me. You're not properly estimating how bad Kool's supporting cast is, and one man can't do it alone. Put David on Kent, and you're looking at a team threatening 30 wins and is easily in the top 40.

What a weak argument. This isn't the NBA draft. All of the last 19 MAC players of the year came from teams with winning conference records. WMU may not finish above .500 in the MAC. I don't care about the supporting cast, as the POY makes his teammates better. Kool doesn't do that. Sing is an all-around player and Kool is a scorer. Open your mind to the fact that the POY shouldn't just be a scorer, but a leader and someone who makes their team that much better.

Singletary is the only active MAC player with over 1,100 career points, 400 rebounds, 250 assists and 150 steals.

Quote: You can also make the case he's not the best player on his own team.

I can't make that case. Look at scoring, assists, points and forced turnovers as a package for the Flashes when Chris is on the floor and when he's on the bench. Green's good, Rod's clutch...but Chris is hands down the best all around player on the Flashes.

Chris' reputation may keep him away from POY, but not his performance.

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Chris' reputation may keep him away from POY, but not his performance.
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Then I guess the boys will have win the whole damned thing so Chris can be Tournament MVP.

Chris is hands down the best player on the team in my opinion. He is the straw that stirs the drink. When he is on the floor our offense is 10X better. I do have to agree with Ozoner on one point though. I would not say he is the POY right now simply because he spends too much time on the bench in foul trouble. Now if he can finish out the season limiting the fouls like he did against OU then I think he has to be strongly considered. He stuffs a stat sheet even with his limited minutes. Also keep in mind that a huge part of Greene's improvement is the fact that Singltary gets him the ball in position to score.

dannyb73 Wrote:What a weak argument.

Is it? Think about it. If you're making a team, and you get to pick from everyone, you're taking the best player, right? This is just a fun way of rephrasing the question, "Who is the conference's best player?"

(02-22-2010 07:45 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  All of the last 19 MAC players of the year came from teams with winning conference records.

And there are a lot of terrible choices for POY among those 19. This year is separate from every other year, and it will be judged on its own merits.

dannyb73 Wrote:WMU may not finish above .500 in the MAC.

All Kool's fault, clearly.

dannyb73 Wrote:I don't care about the supporting cast, as the POY makes his teammates better. Kool doesn't do that.

First of all, how can you say he doesn't make his teammates better? What is he supposed to, motivate them not to brick wide-open shots? OK, you don't care about the supporting the cast. We'll just have a one-on-one tournament, then.

By the way, your logic boils down to, "Kent is winning, so Singletary is making his teammates better. WMU is not winning, so Kool is not making his teammates better." This is not an MVP award. Basketball is played with five guys, and Kent is winning a lot of games even though their best player is not on the floor for a third or more of the game. If Chris was making his team that much better, wouldn't the rest of the team be suffering a little bit more without him? I've seen enough of this team to know they can get by without him. Not win the conference, but get by.

dannyb73 Wrote:Sing is an all-around player and Kool is a scorer.

This is false.

dannyb73 Wrote:Open your mind to the fact that the POY shouldn't just be a scorer, but a leader and someone who makes their team that much better.

Done. Let's look at efficiency, which measures a player's total contributions on the floor.

Efficiency per game
Kool: 18
Singletary: 13

That's not close. Of course, Kool does get nearly nine minutes more of playing time per game than Singletary, so let's make it tempo-free:

Efficiency per possession
Kool: .307
Singletary: .274

Singletary looks better there, but Kool clocks in the top 100 nationally.

But Kent has played a much tougher schedule than WMU. Chris has had to contend with tougher opposition. Good point! Let's look at it with only conference games:

Singletary: 13 per game, .295 per possession
Kool: 19 per game, .314 per possession

(By the way, I didn't say I was voting for Kool. This is your argument.)

Without David Kool, WMU is one of the worst teams in the country. Probably worse than NIU. He's asked to be everything for that team (he has an incredibly low TO rate for a two-guard that handles the ball as much as he does), but there's only so much one player can do (ask LeBron James). He can't help the fact half his team might not belong in D-I. And to claim he is not a leader is simply ignorant. You can't just look at the win-loss record and have that tell you everything. That's lazy.

Again, put David Kool on Kent and that's a team that does damage nationally. Put Chris Singletary on WMU and they still might not even win the West.

Singletary absolutely warrants consideration for first-team all-MAC and POY. However, I don't think he's better than Kool this year.

(02-22-2010 11:03 PM)OZoner Wrote:  

dannyb73 Wrote:What a weak argument.

Is it? Think about it. If you're making a team, and you get to pick from everyone, you're taking the best player, right? This is just a fun way of rephrasing the question, "Who is the conference's best player?"

(02-22-2010 07:45 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  All of the last 19 MAC players of the year came from teams with winning conference records.

And there are a lot of terrible choices for POY among those 19. This year is separate from every other year, and it will be judged on its own merits.

dannyb73 Wrote:WMU may not finish above .500 in the MAC.

All Kool's fault, clearly.

dannyb73 Wrote:I don't care about the supporting cast, as the POY makes his teammates better. Kool doesn't do that.

First of all, how can you say he doesn't make his teammates better? What is he supposed to, motivate them not to brick wide-open shots? OK, you don't care about the supporting the cast. We'll just have a one-on-one tournament, then.

By the way, your logic boils down to, "Kent is winning, so Singletary is making his teammates better. WMU is not winning, so Kool is not making his teammates better." This is not an MVP award. Basketball is played with five guys, and Kent is winning a lot of games even though their best player is not on the floor for a third or more of the game. If Chris was making his team that much better, wouldn't the rest of the team be suffering a little bit more without him? I've seen enough of this team to know they can get by without him. Not win the conference, but get by.

dannyb73 Wrote:Sing is an all-around player and Kool is a scorer.

This is false.

dannyb73 Wrote:Open your mind to the fact that the POY shouldn't just be a scorer, but a leader and someone who makes their team that much better.

Done. Let's look at efficiency, which measures a player's total contributions on the floor.

Efficiency per game
Kool: 18
Singletary: 13

That's not close. Of course, Kool does get nearly nine minutes more of playing time per game than Singletary, so let's make it tempo-free:

Efficiency per possession
Kool: .307
Singletary: .274

Singletary looks better there, but Kool clocks in the top 100 nationally.

But Kent has played a much tougher schedule than WMU. Chris has had to contend with tougher opposition. Good point! Let's look at it with only conference games:

Singletary: 13 per game, .295 per possession
Kool: 19 per game, .314 per possession

(By the way, I didn't say I was voting for Kool. This is your argument.)

Without David Kool, WMU is one of the worst teams in the country. Probably worse than NIU. He's asked to be everything for that team (he has an incredibly low TO rate for a two-guard that handles the ball as much as he does), but there's only so much one player can do (ask LeBron James). He can't help the fact half his team might not belong in D-I. And to claim he is not a leader is simply ignorant. You can't just look at the win-loss record and have that tell you everything. That's lazy.

Again, put David Kool on Kent and that's a team that does damage nationally. Put Chris Singletary on WMU and they still might not even win the West.

Singletary absolutely warrants consideration for first-team all-MAC and POY. However, I don't think he's better than Kool this year.

You can throw out numbers until you are blue in the face. And I don't know you OZoner, so I have no clue if you really have a vote or not, nor do I care. I think you over-estimate how good KSU would be without Chris. When he isn't on the floor we are a different team. Also, making the argument about how good WMU would be with Chris and how good KSU would be with Kool is like saying team A beat team B and team B beat team C, so team A would clearly beat team C. It doesn't work that way. Singletary is an all around player who scores, rebounds, passes and defends. Oh yeah - he wins, too. I am not slighting David Kool at all, however, IMO you can't be POY when your team is drastically underachieving. And clearly, people agree with my train of thought here because for the last 2 decades, everyone who has won MAC POY has been on a winning team.

Individual awards should be awarded on the basis of team success, in other words. Got it. Can't disagree more. I will reiterate: There have been some positively awful choices for Player of the Year in the past, some in no small part because they were on a winning team. That just means there is a larger pool of people that are wrong.

By the way, the voting criteria doesn't mention where the team finishes... what's that? There are NO criteria? Well, that helps. Basically, we have to invent what it means in our own heads. It leads to fun, heated arguments on media row in Cleveland.

I draw a clear distinction between individual accomplishment and team success. Others, like yourself, don't. Problem is, nobody's wrong (though I maintain the people who draw no such distinction are wrong). The "if he was so good, the team would win more" argument is such bad logic, it gives me a headache. It doesn't make sense to reward one player for having good teammates and punish another for having bad teammates. All I can do is look at each player on his own merits.

I should note I went out of my way to praise Singletary in an article last week.

(02-23-2010 01:10 AM)OZoner Wrote:  Individual awards should be awarded on the basis of team success, in other words. Got it. Can't disagree more. I will reiterate: There have been some positively awful choices for Player of the Year in the past, some in no small part because they were on a winning team. That just means there is a larger pool of people that are wrong.

By the way, the voting criteria doesn't mention where the team finishes... what's that? There are NO criteria? Well, that helps. Basically, we have to invent what it means in our own heads. It leads to fun, heated arguments on media row in Cleveland.

I draw a clear distinction between individual accomplishment and team success. Others, like yourself, don't. Problem is, nobody's wrong (though I maintain the people who draw no such distinction are wrong). The "if he was so good, the team would win more" argument is such bad logic, it gives me a headache. It doesn't make sense to reward one player for having good teammates and punish another for having bad teammates. All I can do is look at each player on his own merits.

I should note I went out of my way to praise Singletary in an article last week.

Individual awards, IMO should have something to do with how you impact your team. Again, just my opinion. Looking back at the list of previous MAC POY, you can certainly say there were terrible selections. However, you cannot compare the bad selections and their merit versus someone else's award in a different year. In other words, Kool or Singletary this year will never equal the type of player or year that Ron Harper had when he won. Some years the selection isn't so clear cut. It doesn't mean that they didn't earn it, there was just nobody that was more deserving. How often in baseball does the MVP come from a team that doesn't win? I started this thread by saying there is a somewhat universal debate about what would qualify someone to actually be the POY. Until or unless the award establishes criteria, that will always be the case, and for the record, I believe David Kool will win the POY award. We can always agree to disagree.

Agreed. Like I said, each year stands on its own. And I'm not saying team impact isn't a factor, but it's not at the top of the list, either.

Don't get me started on baseball MVP voting. That's a can of words you don't want to open.

(02-22-2010 11:03 PM)OZoner Wrote:  If Chris was making his team that much better, wouldn't the rest of the team be suffering a little bit more without him? I've seen enough of this team to know they can get by without him. Not win the conference, but get by.

Good discussion, but this is where your argument falls apart. The fact that the team can't get by without Singletary is evidenced by how often Geno leaves him in with two fouls in the first half, or plays him with three or four fouls early in the second. It's a risky decision, obviously, but the team looks lost on both ends without Chris on the floor.

Kool is an excellent scorer and floor general, but Singletary contributes in many more ways.

You guys have an interesting discussion going on but Flash Fan hit it on the head above. Singeltary will NOT win based on his reputation. Singletary has a number of suspensions related to legal and internal disciplinary issues over his 4 years and the punch last year doesnt help. Outside of Kent his image is poor no matter how good he plays. Contrast that with Kool who has had an unbelievable 4 years and has probably kept Western from being downright terrible.

I like Chris and i think he has grown up on and off the court but his past will haunt him and Kool will win it. And i'm ok with that. More fuel for the fire.

This is from Kent State's January 9th win over the Bobcats in Athens:

"The rest of the game was a see-saw battle until Bassett hit two free throws to put Ohio up, 60-58. Kent State's Chris Singletary drove the lane and scored through contact, later converting the three-point play to put the visitors up by one....Singletary led the visitors with 22 points."

Here is a clipping from Kent's recent home victory over Ohio University:

"Kent State's Justin Greene and Chris Singletary each recorded double-doubles as the Golden Flashes held off Ohio 74-67 Wednesday evening at the M.A.C. Center....Greene had 15 points and 11 rebounds to go with Singletary's 17 points, 10 boards and five assists."

Time and time again Chris Singletary has led the MAC East division leading Flashes to close victories. Against Kool and Western Michigan the Broncos couldn't stop the 6'4 Singletary from scoring in the low post to answer a Kool jump shot and lead the Flashes to victory. If he isn't doing it with scoring, he is doing it with assists or steals.

You can take David Kool first in a draft all you want. I'll take Singletary and let him knock Kool on his butt a few times before backing down whoever the heck you put on him on the other end. There isn't a better all around player in the MAC than Chris Singletary. The guy is a better CENTER right now than your very own Kenneth Van Kempen.

http://www.recordpub.com/news/sports_article/4775255

David Carducci must have seen our board!

(02-23-2010 10:28 AM)fallsdog Wrote:  The guy is a better CENTER right now than your very own Kenneth Van Kempen.

"My" Kenneth Van Kempen? I never claimed him. I never even brought him into the conversation. What are you talking about?

fallsdog Wrote:Against Kool and Western Michigan the Broncos couldn't stop the 6'4 Singletary from scoring in the low post to answer a Kool jump shot and lead the Flashes to victory.

Nor could Kent stop Kool. Did Chris knock David on his butt, or did David light the M.A.C. up like a Christmas tree? And my memory is failing me, but wasn't it Sherman who answered the Kool's turnaround?

fallsdog Wrote:If he isn't doing it with scoring, he is doing it with assists or steals.

As does Kool. Kool also draws four more fouls than he commits per 40 minutes and turns the ball over at a much lower rate. I don't know why you guys are trying so hard to convince me Singletary is an all-around player; I never said anything to the contrary. I similarly don't understand why you won't agree Kool is also an all-around player. Chris plays in the post, David plays on the perimeter.

Both players are having great years and are in their schools' record books. I don't think either guy would be the wrong choice. Based on past results, I would say Singletary will be POY, especially if KSU beats out Akron for the regular season title. Because of Singletary's past troubles on and off the court, though, it might put Kool over the top.