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Much debate's been made over the last five years (maybe more, but stick with the last five) over recruiting decisions that KSU has taken in "leaning into" basketball recruits. Some regard reputation issues such as Chris out of H.S., others because they have been on a JUCO route, or others about transfers.

So far, the risks have paid great to neutral returns. Names that come to mind that offered " great" returns are Gates, Q, Fisher, Youngblood, Singletary and Smith. Pretty good list of names that brought us trophies at the Q.

Assume you are in the new A.D.'s chair next June. Would you change anything at all about taking recruiting risks? If so, what?

First, I think you have been reading to much on one of our conference rivals message board. Second, if you are a proven coach, you can pretty much bring in who you want. Certainly there are times when the AD steps in and asks questions, but I think most trust the man calling the plays to get the players he needs to win believing they will represent the program in an appropriate manner.

And to answer your question - I would change nothing. It's a formula that has worked. And even if it backfires from time to time, kids deserve 2nd/3rd chances as they are people too.

Don't forget about Demetric Shaw, probably one of the best defenders I have seen. (Ooops, you said 5 years)

As the new AD I would place a little more emphasis on traditional 4 year student athletes. I would also continue with the JUCO / transfer thing in a more moderated way. It really hasn't backfired and like you said has directly led to us cutting the nets down at the Q. If kids think that KSU is a place where they can turn around their lives, get an education and help the Flashes win MAC titles than I am all for it.

(03-06-2010 11:10 PM)FlashFan Wrote:  Much debate's been made over the last five years (maybe more, but stick with the last five) over recruiting decisions that KSU has taken in "leaning into" basketball recruits. Some regard reputation issues such as Chris out of H.S., others because they have been on a JUCO route, or others about transfers.

So far, the risks have paid great to neutral returns. Names that come to mind that offered " great" returns are Gates, Q, Fisher, Youngblood, Singletary and Smith. Pretty good list of names that brought us trophies at the Q.

Assume you are in the new A.D.'s chair next June. Would you change anything at all about taking recruiting risks? If so, what?

Leave it as it is because I feel that the good has far outweighed the bad. We are taking on a little risk but I think that is unfair to label all jucos in the same catagory. Kids go to Juco's for a variety of reasons and the majority of them are decent kids who will succeed if nurtured in the proper environment .

Even a guy like Chris who had a jaded past and some troubles here managed to turn their lives around when given the chance to do so. So I think we have done a great job and should keep going down the same path as long as we do our homework.

To be 100% honest - I HATE THIS THREAD. This makes it public, that people think that even we question if we are selling our soul for wins. And IMO that is not the case. Just because someone else may or may not be holier than now, isn't our problem. If a kid can play, is eligible, and can stay eligible and not be a negative influence I do not care about his past.

I'm glad that KFlasher brought up Shaw. To this day he remains as one of my favorite guys that have ever played here. He was just so damn good on both ends of the floor and was very under rated by people that don't really know the game.

I think there has been a lot of talk lately about Chris turning around his life and rightfully so. I wish we were seeing the same kind of stories printed about Tyree though too. I know a lot of you have said Tyree has not been the player we thought we were getting. So far in his two years here I havn't seen his name in the police blotter. I havn't seen him go off on a ref or a teammate. There hasn't been stories of him body slamming a teammate in the locker room. I can't even remember him getting T'd up. Yes, sometimes he forces shots, but overall he has seemed like a great team player who fits into the scheme. A friend of mine who knows him says he is as nice of a guy as you could want to meet. Basically what I'm saying is he hasn't been at all the player we thought we were getting and I mean that in a very good way. Think back to two years ago how everyone, outside of Kent, seemed to think Kent was throwing away any public image just to win. They had faith in Tyree and he hasn't let them down.

(03-07-2010 01:25 AM)anti-zip Wrote:  I think there has been a lot of talk lately about Chris turning around his life and rightfully so. I wish we were seeing the same kind of stories printed about Tyree though too. I know a lot of you have said Tyree has not been the player we thought we were getting. So far in his two years here I havn't seen his name in the police blotter. I havn't seen him go off on a ref or a teammate. There hasn't been stories of him body slamming a teammate in the locker room. I can't even remember him getting T'd up. Yes, sometimes he forces shots, but overall he has seemed like a great team player who fits into the scheme. A friend of mine who knows him says he is as nice of a guy as you could want to meet. Basically what I'm saying is he hasn't been at all the player we thought we were getting and I mean that in a very good way. Think back to two years ago how everyone, outside of Kent, seemed to think Kent was throwing away any public image just to win. They had faith in Tyree and he hasn't let them down.

There is a big difference between Tyree the flawed player and Tyree the man.

Two other names--

Jason Edwin: who transferred from SLU. Great kid, very important player his senior year.

Frank Henry-Ala: despite the character issues that might be involved with a kid from a family that has KNOWN CONNECTIONS AND INVOLVEMENT in the U.S medical system, he's been pretty good. (Do I need the wink smiley here?)

Any stigma that is attached to JUCO's and transfers is in the minds of the ignorant. Everyone is an individual. Ours have been excellent additions.

We have had relatively few problems with kids in our basketball program, and most of the problems have been (correctly) focused on Chris. He has proven those who had faith in him to be correct even when there were lots of doubters. (And big kudos to Elton Alexander for a beautifully written story, btw.)

Compare to Ohio who has been having all sorts of behavior and arrest issues the last couple of years, or Akron who had those two guys with serious gun felonies. And I don't mean to denigrate OU and Akron. Problems can really happen anywhere and do happen sometimes almost everywhere. Every school does it's best to bring in guys they think will not have those kinds of issues. I'm sure neither Dambrot nor Groce thought they were "selling their souls" to win when they allowed those players in the programs.

Coaches give kids who have not had perfect squeaky-clean lives chances to improve themselves and make something of their lives. I'd say it's almost in the DNA of most coaches to look at recruits optimistically in terms of what they think they can do help mold them into good men. Good coaches are about giving kids opportunities to succeed, (and I'd say Dambrot and Groce are good coaches who simply gave chances to kids in these cases who have let them down. Could happen anywhere.)

We have had excellent "high character" guys throughout our success and many of the very best of those have not been traditional 4-year students. More of same, please.

I'm with dannyb73. There have been no serious problems with Kent State's basketball players while they are in the program. Even Singletary's problems were misdemeanors that can, and do, happen to anyone. The players that do have past issues were well screened by the AD and coaches. While I would like to see a little more emphasis on the four (or five) year players, what Kent State has done beginning with Waters has worked.

I see our athletic dept prioritizing scholarships. We try to recruit the best high school seniors. (Not just the tall guy that can woo fans with sheer height.) If they don't find only the best high schooler, they look in the JUCO ranks. If it were so easy for a MAC team to recruit the best players from high schools, I brelieve we would be the first MAC school they would go to. However, we are in Big 10 country. Those players go to one of THOSE schools. Not to mention Cincinnatti, Kent ucky, X are all also in the neighbohood. So, a smart coaching staff realizes that we need to expand our recruiting searches to JUCO. I say kudos to Kent State for making a good mid-major in an Ohio State world. When we get the highest skilled freshmen, we go all out to get them. When we can't, we become a little shrewed with our scholarships. Nothing wrong with that.

Good point, "AlphaFlash" Most HS players and their family and fans have an inflated idea of their talent. Add to that that these kids watch TV and all they see are "Top 25" and "big Ten", and convincing a good player that a Kent State would be a great fit isn't easy. Obviously, it can be done, but it's a lot of work. I recall when former MAC POY Keith McLeod signed with BG, his coach had to convince him and his fans that playing at BG was not a "come -down". JUCO players tend to be more realistic, that "HS hero" crap having faded away. I think Ken State needs to have a good mix of HS signees, JUCO players, and transfers. I think the HS signee should be the top priority, but they have to be flexible.

Glad to see this quality of discussion because it's been something I've thought about from time to time. We know what our current AD will do...we don't know how the new person will look at things.

If I had to answer my own question, I'd say:

JUCO's & Transfers: If it's a good kid, why not? As many of you cited, I can't recall one JUCO or transfer that's actually shown up to play for us get in any serious trouble on or off the court or disrupt the program. Everyone I can think of except Jason graduated, and it's a trajedy he left one credit shy. My issue has been and continues to be balance. I just don't know how we continue to turnover the talent at the level we have every two years and continue to stay on top. Given we can maintain the right balance, why not? More guys like 'Blood, Q, Fisher, Shaw, Gates....bring 'em.

"Character" issues: I, personally, have felt differently about this over the years. It comes down to a case by case basis. In principle, it's hard to tell a 18-20 year old who wants a fresh start that there are no more chances. In some regards, the 18-20 year olds who have made big mistakes might be the least risk, because the ones who want to turn their lives around know they have the most to lose. I just hope the next AD has Laing's magic of telling the difference between a kid who could blossom under the right circumstances and a kid who is just pure trouble. For example, I probably would not have taken Tyree. I would have been wrong. He has not lit it up like we expected, but has been a model citizen.

I respect you opinion about this discussion, dannyb73, but disagree. This board will have a thread with 20+ comments on what "we" should do when there is a problem. See threads on Chris's DUI, Chris being ejected from the Akron game, admitting Tyree, etc. That doesn't even count all of the "advice" we've received on the main board. We never see threads like this stating that the decisions Kent State made to give a kid another chance were the right ones and lives are better because of them.

It's the old story that the bad news hits the front page and the correction is buried on page E-15 in the corner ( for those of you who remember newspapers.:muttering:). I, for one, am sick of the "renegade program" tag on us and want to call it out for the lie that it is. Maybe it's time to put on the front page that Kent State basketball players not only know how to win, but play hard, work hard, follow the rules, contribute to the community and graduate. ( Maybe someone will correct me, but it's my impression that this is the third straight year where we have a 100% graduation rate...and all with GPA's 3.0 and above?)

As for the other names, all great call outs. None should be forgotten. I'll even add one...Kevin Warzinski. How could we have cut down the nets without Warz?

I admit that there were times in the past that I thought Singletary was more trouble than he was worth. I admit that I was wrong and that Kent State was right to stick with him.

No way is Kent State basketball a "renegade program". Anyone who thinks that just doesn't know the facts, or doesn't want to know the facts.

(03-06-2010 11:44 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  To be 100% honest - I HATE THIS THREAD. This makes it public, that people think that even we question if we are selling our soul for wins. And IMO that is not the case. Just because someone else may or may not be holier than now, isn't our problem. If a kid can play, is eligible, and can stay eligible and not be a negative influence I do not care about his past.

So so right i hate when people don't want to give a KID a chance to play ball cause of some mistakes he has made. First he is a kid and human at that. does that mean he doesnt deserve a chance to play ball? Maybe he didnt have the right enviroment/strucure around him. I think some great coaches can make you a better player as well as a better person. look at the the diff this coaching staff is doing with these kids. I know Geno and i know he wants to win but in the process he actually care about these kids sincerely once they become a part of his family. Singletary was not a bad person but a confused kid adopting to a new environment and rough around the edges learning that its a different from surviving in chicago and on a college campus. but anyways on a diff note i think the juco and transefers are the better of the players we have gates, warz, blood,omni, fisher etc

(03-07-2010 12:59 PM)flashfever Wrote:  

(03-06-2010 11:44 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  To be 100% honest - I HATE THIS THREAD. This makes it public, that people think that even we question if we are selling our soul for wins. And IMO that is not the case. Just because someone else may or may not be holier than now, isn't our problem. If a kid can play, is eligible, and can stay eligible and not be a negative influence I do not care about his past.

So so right i hate when people don't want to give a KID a chance to play ball cause of some mistakes he has made. First he is a kid and human at that. does that mean he doesnt deserve a chance to play ball? Maybe he didnt have the right enviroment/strucure around him. I think some great coaches can make you a better player as well as a better person. look at the the diff this coaching staff is doing with these kids. I know Geno and i know he wants to win but in the process he actually care about these kids sincerely once they become a part of his family. Singletary was not a bad person but a confused kid adopting to a new environment and rough around the edges learning that its a different from surviving in chicago and on a college campus. but anyways on a diff note i think the juco and transefers are the better of the players we have gates, warz, blood,omni, fisher etc

I sometimes wonder if Singletary did any more or less to cause trouble than any other college athlete. However, you bring in this Singletary guy or this Evans guy, and they arrive on campus with a label. So when they have a DUI they are used to paint the walls. When they have a noise complaint you have other teams saying Kent State is a bunch of hoodlums. how many players from other teams ended up with a DUI? how many fans from other schools chanting: "D-U-I" have DIU's? Maybe it was something to the equivelant: drug posession/use, statitory rape, loitering, indecent exposure. The difference between their players that got caught and Evens and Chris is they didn't arrive at their school with the label. E&C did. AND CHRIS GRADUATED IN 4 YEARS! OMG, I can't even say I did that.

I will admit that I was not in favor of the JUCO and transfer trend. I bought into the stereotype that these are "troubled" kids and would make us appear to be a renegade program who wanted to win at all costs.

That said, it appears to have worked out. They selected the right kids and put a strong infrastructure of support around them. For the most part, they go to class and graduate. I said in another thread about Singeltary that college is a time to grow up and make mistakes in a safer environment. If Kent State and we, as alumni and fans, can help these young men make a better life for themselves and they can make themselves, their families, and Kent State proud, then it is a win/win.

As long as the infrastructure is there, the Kent Athletic Dept. seems to be able to handle this.

Two coaching staffs sold their soul for Singletary. I am happy it worked out. Regardless of how this season turns out, it was a bumpy ride.

As for taking JUCOs and transfers, Kent State does not take a lot of off-court risks. Evans really is the only major one. Most of the at-risk recruits never made it to Kent, and that appears to have been a good thing.

The real crux of the issue is whether this program will continue to win a majority of its games every year. I would like to see more 4-year players, but also 4-year players developing. Simpson and Evans have played key roles on this team, but the future is bright because Greene is a sophomore. We need more Justin Greenes to continue playing at a high level and even to take the program from the occasional Top 50 RPI team to a perennial Top 35 RPI team. We need our five-year players (McKee and Parks) to be better than average MAC players.

Don't we have a good thing going with the mixture? Other than Chris (4 year player) who have we had trouble with? Tyree has been a model citizen while at Kent.

I think that the future (or real, the current, though few realize it yet) of higher education is through the community college. Community colleges fill a role that is only becoming more important given the current economy and the skyrocketing prices of higher education at both private four year school as well as public universities and colleges. They provide the foundation for many lower-middle class and lower class students to further their educations and fill gaps in their knowledge that may exist from their high school days. Furthermore, I am finding that even more middle and upper income students are starting their college educations at community colleges to save their family the money (for full disclosure, I am an adjunct at the local CC).

As a result, I believe that athletic programs should (and even, to take it a step further, must) recruit from their community colleges and it is a perfectly acceptable practice. By all accounts, Henry-Ala is the team's best student and he is a product of the community college.