The unofficial online home for fans of the Kent State University Golden Flashes. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

Cooper is a stud. I saw both the Akron game and Kent games last night and IMO:
- He is lightening quick and plays with his long arms plays more like 6-4 than 6-1.
- He can score and set up his teammates. Does not have the score only mentality.
- Like any freshmen logging long minutes i'm sure he has off games, poor shots, decisions, etc...

I think his ceiling is very high, he needs some more muscle and he needs to go right some to keep the D honest but i would love to have the problem of watching him for the next 3 years. OU fans will scream but he reminds me of Jeremy Fears for OU's sake though i hope it works out better than that.

As for Holt we probably wont know for another year what we have with him but right now their is no comparison.

I think it is very hard to debate apples vs. oranges!!! Cooper came into a team that wasn't very deep and had to contribute full time right away. Holt, on the other hand, has to play behind Sherman on a deep team. It's not fair to compare a player coming off the bench for limited minutes a game, with one that starts and plays most of the game due to circumstance. I am not saying that one is better than the other yet, but lets give Holt the benefit of the doubt and let him play as a starter vs. starter before we compare!!!

(02-18-2010 09:36 AM)pyle03 Wrote:  I think it is very hard to debate apples vs. oranges!!! Cooper came into a team that wasn't very deep and had to contribute full time right away. Holt, on the other hand, has to play behind Sherman on a deep team. It's not fair to compare a player coming off the bench for limited minutes a game, with one that starts and plays most of the game due to circumstance. I am not saying that one is better than the other yet, but lets give Holt the benefit of the doubt and let him play as a starter vs. starter before we compare!!!

I agree with you pyle. I'll say this though, Cooper has the physical advantage at this point, thats for sure.

(02-18-2010 09:09 AM)ksu315 Wrote:  Cooper is a stud. I saw both the Akron game and Kent games last night and IMO:
- He is lightening quick and plays with his long arms plays more like 6-4 than 6-1.
- He can score and set up his teammates. Does not have the score only mentality.
- Like any freshmen logging long minutes i'm sure he has off games, poor shots, decisions, etc...

I think his ceiling is very high, he needs some more muscle and he needs to go right some to keep the D honest but i would love to have the problem of watching him for the next 3 years. OU fans will scream but he reminds me of Jeremy Fears for OU's sake though i hope it works out better than that.

As for Holt we probably wont know for another year what we have with him but right now their is no comparison.

Great Analysis. I agree completely. You can't teach or develop the type quicks that Cooper has. I have a feeling this guy is gonna torment us (particularly next year when KSU will be in a huge transition).

Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

(02-18-2010 06:51 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

Prediction: Cooper will average 22-25 pts a game next season and Holt will average 10-12...

(02-18-2010 06:51 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

And it's very clear Mavunga, Jones, and Greene are the three best sophomore bigs in the MAC. Two of those guys have been good. Inconsistent, but good. Watt and Cvetinovic haven't exactly been bad either. What's your point? Sometimes guys don't start getting good until their sophomore year? Sure. Maybe that means it's too early to compare them.
But I want to make sure you're not taking anything away from Cooper right now and going forward. It's usually pretty clear with guys who are good as freshman. I would also be shocked if any of these guys averaged over 10 ppg last year. Cooper is well into double digits. Guys like David Kool prove that a huge first-year is probably going to mean you're still going to be good.
Also, I'll go ahead and mention Allen Roberts is playing very well for Miami right now. He's not even putting up the stat line of Holt, I'd bet. But he's been starting for Charlie and playing at the end of games. I think you all understand the significance of that! Hard to find too much wrong with how he's been playing as of late.

(02-18-2010 11:08 PM)miamiredhawks Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:51 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

And it's very clear Mavunga, Jones, and Greene are the three best sophomore bigs in the MAC. Two of those guys have been good. Inconsistent, but good. Watt and Cvetinovic haven't exactly been bad either. What's your point? Sometimes guys don't start getting good until their sophomore year? Sure. Maybe that means it's too early to compare them.
But I want to make sure you're not taking anything away from Cooper right now and going forward. It's usually pretty clear with guys who are good as freshman. I would also be shocked if any of these guys averaged over 10 ppg last year. Cooper is well into double digits. Guys like David Kool prove that a huge first-year is probably going to mean you're still going to be good.
Also, I'll go ahead and mention Allen Roberts is playing very well for Miami right now. He's not even putting up the stat line of Holt, I'd bet. But he's been starting for Charlie and playing at the end of games. I think you all understand the significance of that! Hard to find too much wrong with how he's been playing as of late.

What exactly is your point? Coming on our board to tout Mavunga and some guy we have never heard of is pointless. Green is by far having the best season of all the Sophomores in the conference. He might end up being a first team all-MAC guy.

PPG is a positively awful metric for determining how good a player is, doubly so for point guards.

(02-18-2010 11:22 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 11:08 PM)miamiredhawks Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:51 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

And it's very clear Mavunga, Jones, and Greene are the three best sophomore bigs in the MAC. Two of those guys have been good. Inconsistent, but good. Watt and Cvetinovic haven't exactly been bad either. What's your point? Sometimes guys don't start getting good until their sophomore year? Sure. Maybe that means it's too early to compare them.
But I want to make sure you're not taking anything away from Cooper right now and going forward. It's usually pretty clear with guys who are good as freshman. I would also be shocked if any of these guys averaged over 10 ppg last year. Cooper is well into double digits. Guys like David Kool prove that a huge first-year is probably going to mean you're still going to be good.
Also, I'll go ahead and mention Allen Roberts is playing very well for Miami right now. He's not even putting up the stat line of Holt, I'd bet. But he's been starting for Charlie and playing at the end of games. I think you all understand the significance of that! Hard to find too much wrong with how he's been playing as of late.

What exactly is your point? Coming on our board to tout Mavunga and some guy we have never heard of is pointless. Green is by far having the best season of all the Sophomores in the conference. He might end up being a first team all-MAC guy.

Wow, what unnecessary hostility. It's not like I came over here and even said anything insulting about you, your team, or the fanbase. I only said positive things about all of the players involved. Apparently saying positive things about non-Kent players is a slight?
Anyway, my point was that his argument was founded on bad logic. "Players who had better freshman years than Greene are now playing worse than Greene. Therefore, we should ignore a players first year in determining who will be better." Obviously this is a terrible leap in logic. He attempted to compare guys like Mavunga's first years, who played 20 minutes and average 5 ppg, to DJ Cooper, who is playing 30+ minutes and is a double digit scorer. This situations are hardly comparable. I think one of those forecasts out a lot better than another, which is my point. This is not to say that we don't know about the next four years. We don't - but these two situations are hardly comparable.
You will note at no point in this post did I suggest that Jones or Mav were better than Greene. My next sentence after saying those were the best three was even that Mav and Jones had been inconsistent. So, that implies that Greene is the best of the three right now. But hey, like he attempted to remind us, that doesn't mean he will be the best in two years.
I'm not sure if "some guy no one has ever heard of" refers to Roberts or Jones. If it refers to Jones, then I'm not really sure what to tell you besides you should probably watch teams that aren't Kent more. If it refers to Roberts, fine - but him and Holt have almost identical statistics and have provided almost identical things to their team. I don't know why you want to talk about Holt as having the potential similar to Cooper, but then want to immediately dismiss any other guard with potential as "some guy no one has ever heard of."

(02-18-2010 11:52 PM)miamiredhawks Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 11:22 PM)dannyb73 Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 11:08 PM)miamiredhawks Wrote:  

(02-18-2010 06:51 PM)anti-zip Wrote:  Triva question, what do Mitchell Watt of UB, Nik Cvetinovic (or something like that) of UA, Jarrod Jones of BS, Julian Muvunga of Miami, Micheal Fakunde of NIU, and Flenard Whittfield of WMU all have in common?

They all are all Sophmore big men that averaged more points than Justin Greene as Freshman. Holt and Cooper are not even done with their first season. I think it's time to let this thread die for the next year or two.

And it's very clear Mavunga, Jones, and Greene are the three best sophomore bigs in the MAC. Two of those guys have been good. Inconsistent, but good. Watt and Cvetinovic haven't exactly been bad either. What's your point? Sometimes guys don't start getting good until their sophomore year? Sure. Maybe that means it's too early to compare them.
But I want to make sure you're not taking anything away from Cooper right now and going forward. It's usually pretty clear with guys who are good as freshman. I would also be shocked if any of these guys averaged over 10 ppg last year. Cooper is well into double digits. Guys like David Kool prove that a huge first-year is probably going to mean you're still going to be good.
Also, I'll go ahead and mention Allen Roberts is playing very well for Miami right now. He's not even putting up the stat line of Holt, I'd bet. But he's been starting for Charlie and playing at the end of games. I think you all understand the significance of that! Hard to find too much wrong with how he's been playing as of late.

What exactly is your point? Coming on our board to tout Mavunga and some guy we have never heard of is pointless. Green is by far having the best season of all the Sophomores in the conference. He might end up being a first team all-MAC guy.

Wow, what unnecessary hostility. It's not like I came over here and even said anything insulting about you, your team, or the fanbase. I only said positive things about all of the players involved. Apparently saying positive things about non-Kent players is a slight?
Anyway, my point was that his argument was founded on bad logic. "Players who had better freshman years than Greene are now playing worse than Greene. Therefore, we should ignore a players first year in determining who will be better." Obviously this is a terrible leap in logic. He attempted to compare guys like Mavunga's first years, who played 20 minutes and average 5 ppg, to DJ Cooper, who is playing 30+ minutes and is a double digit scorer. This situations are hardly comparable. I think one of those forecasts out a lot better than another, which is my point. This is not to say that we don't know about the next four years. We don't - but these two situations are hardly comparable.
You will note at no point in this post did I suggest that Jones or Mav were better than Greene. My next sentence after saying those were the best three was even that Mav and Jones had been inconsistent. So, that implies that Greene is the best of the three right now. But hey, like he attempted to remind us, that doesn't mean he will be the best in two years.
I'm not sure if "some guy no one has ever heard of" refers to Roberts or Jones. If it refers to Jones, then I'm not really sure what to tell you besides you should probably watch teams that aren't Kent more. If it refers to Roberts, fine - but him and Holt have almost identical statistics and have provided almost identical things to their team. I don't know why you want to talk about Holt as having the potential similar to Cooper, but then want to immediately dismiss any other guard with potential as "some guy no one has ever heard of."

The guy nobody has ever heard of is Allen Roberts. And in no way shape or form am I upset or being hostile. Ask the folks on this board - when I get hostile, you will know it! The reality is, unless injury takes place, usually guys get better. Yes, Cooper is playing more minutes than anyone in the conference, but he is going to be first team all-MAC as a freshman. He is going to get better and better. Yes, his role might change down the road as other players for OU develop and they become more balanced, but he is probably going to be the best PG in this conference for 4 years if he sticks around. You cannot just throw out the Freshman year. And in regards to Greene, Mav, and Jones, I said what I said similar to the logic people are using for Cooper. Cooper does it on a team where he plays a ton of minutes and they have nobody else. Greene does it on a team that is deep (with 6 seniors) and has a lot of playmakers and he is still one of the 2 horses on this team. Miami and Ball St. are more like OU in regards to their teams (not much help otherwise). Before you jump on me and say Kenny Hayes (and yes I know Miami came back to beat us @ Millet Hall) universally, Miami is not very good. I am only saying this comparing to past teams and what you have. This possibly, IMO, is one of CC best coaching jobs ever. That was my point. Lastly, find me a post where I say Holt will ever be as good as Cooper. Some on here might believe that, and I will support his entire career, hope he grows and matures as a player, which I assume he will, but he will likely never be as explosive as Cooper. It is what it is.

miamiredhawks, trust me I'm not trying to take anything away from Cooper. If you read my earlier posts on this thread I've always said he is really good. My point is that we can't compare Holt and Cooper right now it just simply isn't fair to Holt. I realize that Jones was the only one of the guys I listed that put up huge numbers as a freshman. I thought about that before my post but my point was the other guys I listed played more and better than Greene as freshman and right now you could argue all day which is better. The Cooper Holt comparison right now would be equivalent to a Jones Greene comparison from last year. No comparison at all but now whose better? It's a toss up in my opinion.

Trust me I did not mean to slight Mavunga in anyway, I was not saying Greene is better than him. Watching them play as freshman and based on their numbers I thought Mavunga was ahead of Greene but now I think they are very close. Basically my point was this whole thread is unfair to Holt right now. Also I have heard of Allen Roberts and I have been following his numbers all year along with Orlando Williams'. I think both of them should turn out to be very good Mac players. Would you agree with me that it would be completely unfair to compare them to Cooper right now?

Ozoner, I agree that PPG is very over rated. That's part of my point. I haven't seen anyone mention Cooper's A:TO of over 2 yet.

I actually included that very fact in the this week's round of the power rankings. It's also worth noting he's among the country's leaders in steals.

Holt will be a good player. I have no doubt about that.

Cooper looked great to me. My only concern might be his size. He could get beaten down as time goes on. I know he is a freshman in college but he looks like a sophmore in high school.